Let’s Talk Dating and Relationships with Alopecia Areata: Real Experiences, Real Support

JUDY WILLIAMS:

(00:00)
Welcome to the National Alopecia Areata Foundation's webinar. Let's talk dating and relationships with alopecia areata real experiences, real support. Joining us today is our moderator, Sheila Marie Hunter, and our panelist, Taylor Mooney, Ebony Jean, Lindsay Sullivan, and Darlene Phillips. And I am Judy Williams, Director of Community Support for NAAF Before we start the webinar, I'd like to cover a few housekeeping details.

We have disabled chat for this webinar session. Please post questions for our panelists in the QA section and please keep your questions general for the benefit of all audience members. This webinar is being recorded and all registrants will receive a link to the recording via email. And finally, please share your feedback with us. At the conclusion of this webinar, a link to a short survey will pop up in your browser window. Please complete the survey there.

We will use your input to plan for future webinars.

And please note that live captioning is available for this webinar. To turn on the captions, click on the CC Show Captions button on the Zoom toolbar. Captions will appear automatically at the bottom of your screen.

This webinar is part of NAAF's You Are Not Alone Education and Empowerment webinar series. NAAF gratefully acknowledges the support provided for this webinar series by our partners Lily, Pfizer, and Sun Pharma

And before we get started, I'd like to tell you a little bit about NAAF and our mission. The National Alopecia Areata Foundation is the leading advocacy organization for alopecia areata NAAF's mission is to drive research to find a cure and accessible treatments for alopecia areata support those impacted, and educate the public about the disease. NAAF's vision is an empowered community with the choice to embrace or live free of alopecia areata

To learn more about NAAF support resources and research and advocacy activities, or to join us as an advocate or supporter, please visit our website at NAAF.org.

And we know that it can be confusing to hear all of the terms used to talk about alopecia areata Patchy, diffuse, Ophiasis totalis, universalis, mild, moderate, severe. The NAAF team wants you to know that even though there are many words used, they all refer to one disease, the autoimmune disease alopecia areata That's where we are here to talk about today.

And now on to today's webinar. Let's talk dating and relationships with alopecia areata real experiences, real support. We are honored to have these amazing panelists joining us today. So without further ado, I'll stop sharing my screen so that they can introduce themselves. Let's start with our moderator, Sheila.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(03:05)
Hello, good afternoon, everybody. My name is Sheila Marie Hunter. I am the founder and designer of Carrie Louise Designs, the author of the Baldy Girls Journal, and the creator of So Free Since. So Free Since began as a community of conversations about freedom, confidence, and self acceptance, and has grown into a movement that includes inspirational apparel and wearable art where we're redefining beauty.

wearing our confidence and owning our stories for women, men, and children. And a little bit about me, I first started losing my hair in high school and not really knowing what alopecia was. I just knew that I felt like there were never gonna be any boys that liked a girl that didn't have hair. So I started taking up hair in high school, a cosmetology, and really didn't get diagnosed until my twenties.

so I navigated through all of those things and went through dating with alopecia and hiding. And now I'm married. I have a beautiful daughter and a husband, and I live in Austin, Texas, and I'm really excited about this conversation tonight because it's definitely I know both sides of it, the dating and being married with it and being accepted.

With it. So I'm excited about it. I'm excited about these three incredible ladies that are open to share their conversations and their experiences with all of us and to share a little bit about my experience during dating. So, you know, without further ado, going in too deep in, I want to give each of the ladies an opportunity to introduce themselves and tell a little bit about their alopecia and a little bit about their journey.

So we're gonna start with Lindsay Sullivan tonight. Tell us, take the floor. Thank you so much.

LINDSAY SULLIVAN:

(05:08)
Sheila, thank you everyone for having us and joining us. so I'm Lindsay Sullivan. I am 33 years old. I've had alopecia areata since I was two years old. So I don't really know life without alopecia. I have been a support group leader for NAAF since 2017. So we love the NAAF fam. I am also a co-founder of what is called the Alopecia Justice League, where we try to get legislative change made for alopecians. I also have my podcast very nearly almost, in which I talk about my journey with, you know, almost having a full head of hair, almost not. I've been completely bald. I've had patchy alopecia, I am now on a JAK inhibitor, which I'll be speaking about in person at the NAAF conference in just a few weeks. I'm really excited to attend and hopefully see a lot of you guys there. and I echo so much of what Sheila said. I'm I'm single, I'm 33 and single, and yeah, dating definitely can feel like this really intimidating mountain to climb, I think, especially as bald women and

But, you know, something I'm learning as I age and with my wonderful friend group and support system is dating is something that everyone is thinking about. And, you know, I feel like talking about in maybe a superficial way. but I'm really, really excited to get into this conversation with people that really understand. And I hope you guys can feel less alone coming from this conversation. I'm really honored to be here.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(06:36)
Hey great. I'm I'm glad that you're here too. So we'll hear from Ebony.

EBONY JEAN:

(06:42)
Hi everyone. Thank you so much for having me on this panel, Sheila. My name is Ebony Jean. I am 35 years of age from Michigan. And I've had alopecia universalis since I was four years old. I don't remember the diagnosis, but along the way, my mom explained what was going on and how it began to impact me. Throughout my youth, I was bullied and teased constantly for this condition.

I just went public with my story 10 years ago. And that is the same time I joined the NAAF Foundation, and they have been such an incredible support system, a great resource for us. And I've been advocating. I served as a legislative liaison for the past decade, traveling to DC with our NAAF community. And I'm single. I've been single for quite some time. It's been a little in intimidating as Lindsay talked about.

you know, dating is a very popular topic, especially in our culture today. And I did have some insecurities over time, you know, I'm still trying to work through that. this panel is definitely going to help all of us and I'm really excited to be here.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(07:51)
We're excited to have you. All right. Well, definitely we're gonna hear from Taylor. Let's hear a little bit about you, Taylor.

TAYLOR MOONEY:

(07:59)
Hi, my name is Taylor Mooney. I am 29 years old and I live in Berlin, Maryland, which is right by the beach. And I got diagnosed with alopecia when I was two and I lost all my hair by the time I was in second grade. and then I spent my entire life, not entire life, but a lot of years of it covering it up and trying to hide my alopecia. And then when I got into my mid-20s, I kind of didn't really want to do that anymore. So I worked towards being more open and okay with being bald and I so now I kind of mix it up. I have like a bunch of different wigs and sometimes I wear blonde to work, sometimes I'm red, sometimes it's short, long, whatever I want. And then or I just go bald if I'm feeling like that that day. So dating's definitely been something new to me in the past couple of years being more open with my alopecia. I use all the dating profiles and I put bald pictures on there and then me in different wigs and it's been a very freeing and I've learned a lot about myself over the past couple of years and I think this is a very important topic. So I thank you, Sheila, for inviting me and I hope that you guys get something out of this. And I'm going to the conference. So if anybody sees me there, say hi.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(09:21)
Yes, we will. Definitely will. And now we're gonna hear from Miss Darlene.

DARLENE PHILLIPS:

Hello everybody. I'm Darlene Phillips. I am an Alopecia Advocate. I have been a support group leader for NAAF for the last eight years. And I am 69 years old. I'm giving all this on this panel, almost twice the age of all of us, all the girls.

But love has no limit. Age doesn't have a limit, but we're all looking for love, it doesn't matter which age. And I am also a co-author of a book, Unleashing the Power of Her, Creating Legacy. And I am also going to be at the conference and I am a conference ambassador. So all you newcomers, first comers, you know, look for me and I can show you a good time and around which you can expect. So looking forward to sharing my journey as

Been married twice and just sharing some wisdom. Like, you know, we don't give up on love. We just and nor do we give up on ourselves. So happy to be here. And thank you, Sheila and NAAF for allowing us to have this space. Great. Thank you. Yes. Well, I forgot to add my age in there, Darlene. I'm 55. I'm not as young as all the other ladies, too. But you know, hey, you're only as young as you feel, right? There we go. Yes. So I I last year was my first year at NAAF. And like I said, my walk away is that it's a family of support. And that is the one thing that I talked to my friends about when I got back home to the salon that I loved how NAAF had support classes for families, for you know, there were entire families here, kids there, siblings there, and they had classes for siblings, even just understanding how it is to relate to you know your sibling that might be sick.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

So I love the support and I will be at NAAF as well. So please come and visit me at the vendors booth for So Free Since and Carrie Louise Designs. But we are definitely gonna jump right in tonight to the questions. So my first question, and I'm gonna pose this question to Ebony and Taylor, and either one of you guys can go first. Is how did alopecia impact the way you viewed yourself when it came to dating?

And did society's beauty standards and social media influence your confidence and your self-image with relationships? So either one of you guys can go first.

EBONY JEAN:

(11:53)
Okay.

TAYLOR MOONEY:

(11:54)
I'm gonna go first.

EBONY JEAN:

(11:55)
Okay. okay, so this is a very important question. I remember growing up and like going to high school, I was very insecure. I did not have a lot of confidence. Of course, people talked about me and when I tried to start dating, guys would, you know, make rumors about me or they would shy other people away from wanting to talk to me, like, don't talk to her. She wears a wig all the time and that's not her real hair. She's weird, she's this and that and the third.

And it's like being in a society where hair is like the main focal point of a woman's beauty, it is so like we are so much more than our hair, you know, and it's really stressful because the main thing that guys look at is hair. well, she gotta have a s short like bob or hair down to her back, otherwise I won't be attracted to her. And and that's that's hurtful.

It you know, and it's a lot of people who have gone through these conditions or they would try to you know, protect themselves by not dating and I completely understand, but in my case, I've only been in one relationship and I was very skeptical about this person because I didn't know if he would was really into me. You know, I asked questions like, Why are you even talking to me? A lot of guys have rejected me. So what makes you any different?

In the beginning, he did tell me that he was really interested in talking to me and he wanted to get to know me for who I am as a person. As far as social media standards, of course, we see all the influencers who are posting about their dating experiences. And when people like me try to post, you know, a lot of a lot of people tend to make these weird comments, you know, they're like, Why why would anybody be attracted to you? You don't have any hair.

You know, so it's it can be stressful and it can skew a person's perspective on beauty, but I've learned from time to time that hair does not define who I am. It doesn't define any of us. And every day I'm learning to be confident and comfortable in my skin.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(14:02)
Yeah. And that's in being that's important. 'Cause loving you first is the most important thing, you know? And I think the more confidence that the mil more self confidence that we have is is very important with navigating, you know, in the rooms and with men. And I, you know, I have told my daughter over the years, people, you know, are attracted to how you feel about you. So just how you're saying you've changed your

Your thoughts about yourself and how you walk into a room. You know, I think all those things are important. Taylor.

TAYLOR MOONEY:

(14:38)
yes. So I this question means a lot to me because I think for a really long time I was really kind of stuck in like this shell of like being kind of insecure and letting my hair kind of define who I thought I was as a person. And I was always going through this kind of conversation in my head of when am I supposed to tell them or like how do I tell them or how do I make sure they're comfortable or will they still like me and

And then one day I just re I just thought about it and I I'm like, why am I making it all about them? Like it was nothing about me. It was nothing about what I wanted in a in a relationship or in a partner or in somebody. And and after I kind of had that flip, I realized that like hair is just one thing. And when when you just weed people out quickly, like who aren't good people or aren't for you right away, and then you get to meet.

you just kind of jump into like a like quicker into like knowing who you would want to be with. And I think beauty standards are so hard for everyone nowadays. And I just spend every day trying to learn how to be more confident in my own skin because at the end of the day, confidence is what attracts people to you. So being comfortable with who you are is gonna help you find somebody else who's comfortable with who they are.

And that's who you want. So

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(16:04)
Yeah. And I, you know, I tell people thatfreedom looks different for everyone. So I don't want anyone on this webinar to feel like that we are saying you have to be ball in order to be free. there's freedom in wigs, there's freedom in ball, there's freedom in hats, there's freedom in all those things. But when you as a person decide what freedom looks like for you and walking in that.

what that is walking in that for you. I think that's the most important thing. Cause I don't want to condemn anyone or make anyone feel like their choice, because freedom is a choice. But I like I choose to my freedom choice is being bald, you know, and that's what it is at this point. But I don't want anyone to feel like their freedom choice is n is a bad choice, you know, because there are women that wear their wigs that

They're having difficulties dating just as well. Just like Ebony said, you don't know. Well, we're gonna get into that a little a little deeper about the wigs. But yes, you you bring up some valid points, Taylor. And thank you. Our second question is gonna be to Lindsay. was there a moment when you realized your self-worth and understood that you still deserve love and connection exactly who you are. would you say to what would you say to someone? Well I'm gonna wait. I'm gonna s after you answer that one then I'll ask the other half of this question. But take it away, Lindsay.

LINDSAY SULLIVAN:

(17:43)

Sheila, thank you for your thoughtful questions. They we've been she's been prepping hard for this with us and she's just they're great. So it's interesting. Very similarly, like growing up, I kind I was completely bald and I was like, okay, boys will never like me. And that's unfortunate because I really like boys, but we're just that's what we're gonna okay.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(18:04)
Yeah.

LINDSAY SULLIVAN:

(18:05)
You know, I felt very insecure. And dating has always been a piece of my life, honestly. I feel like I can be honest amongst friends here, that I've always felt tremendously insecure about. And I think whether you have hair or not, certainly I think it's harder if you're experiencing such a front-facing condition. But I think the emphasis on romance and finding someone in school, especially when you're a student, it's like the media we're being fed is like rom coms and we're out here reading Twilight and watching a walk to remember. And so there's this huge emphasis on this box tick. And it's interesting because that's all I wanted in high school.

And I kind of just like made the internal executive decision. I'm like, it's probably just not gonna happen because I'm bald. And it's interesting because I actually go so I

I'm my alopecia has always fluctuated. So I was like completely bald. I had some hair. As you can see in this cross stitch back here, I do have like a bald patch back here. And so what I used to do in high school for the first three years is I would do what I call my sexy comb over. And I would like take pieces of hair and like butterfly clip them over my patch. And going into my senior year of high school, I started doing what I've now been doing since I was 17, which is just, you know.

I feel very thankful to have the hair that I have at all. But it's like letting it be what it is. And so it's like my patch is showing, eyebrows. I haven't really heard of her. I think they make me look like an etch sketch. but I just kind of stepped into myself in this way in my senior year of high school. And I was very interested in my student newspaper. I was obsessed with my drama club. And when that happened,

I actually started dating one of my best friends. And it's funny because I wasn't attracted to him when my friends like introduced us. And so we developed, we started talking on the phone every night. And it was never a thing that I was like, I looking at I I wouldn't feel an attraction to him for months. And I remember like there was one hangout, and my friends were like, You guys are like so great together. And I was like, really? And then like he started dating another girl, and I was like, yeah, I think I do like him. Uh-oh. And so she cheated on him and they broke up. And then we started dating. So very cool. But all things considered, like he was one of my best friends. And like obviously it didn't work out long term. But like I got this really beautiful love story, and it wasn't in the way I expected. Like we dated my senior year. He made me like a scavenger hunt for Valentine's Day. And it was so sweet.

And he like embraced my alopecia. Like I like had a blog about my alopecia and he would like share my posts. Like just, you know, it didn't work out for a lot of reasons. But he showed me this really beautiful foundation. And it's funny because as a dater now, we live in a world where we want everything to be instant. And like I'm guilty of this too. The dating apps are set up like video games. And I sometimes like nope.

Like I'm like the most like, yeah, like empowered. But sometimes I'm on these apps and I'm just like, I don't know, man. Like, and it's d I sometimes have to refer back to my 17 year old self and be like, Lindsay, it took time. But you know what was there from the jump was the conversation. Like me and this guy were always like da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Like every party, like my friends were like, You talked to him the whole night in the corner. I'm like, Did I? And so I bring all that up because I had this love story, and that I'm so thankful for that gift because it was like the these things can exist. And throughout my dating life as an adult, I've had these wonderful moments with wonderful men where I'm like, these things are out there. And but it's actually not even that. Like that was such a fortunate, serendipitous foundation. But as I've gone on, like.

It's really about, I think we see relationship building as like a societal standard, whereas like I act in like a box tick, like I was saying earlier. But I actually think love is like at its best. It can be this like serendipitous miracle. And so, yes, like we can put our best self out there, but it's I think so much of society and ourselves is like I need to win something, or I'm guilty of this in my career. I'm like, I need to do this thing. And it was actually really last year I took this solo trip to France by myself. And I was so thankful to do that. But I was completely alone and I was so happy. And it was one of these moments, and I had just kind of come off a year of losing all my hair again. And I was like, wow, like this time alone, like I genuinely felt like I was ugly for so much of my life and I was so afraid of being alone for so much of my life. And it's up to me whether to decide like, I'm beautiful and I'm really obsessed with time with myself. So all that said, like I'm thankful for that foundation and that example and the good interactions I've had. But ultimately it comes from you. It comes from like no person's gonna come along and everything easy.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(23:28)

Yes. Yeah. So Yeah. I I feel like self-worth and just how you feel about yourself is so important. And and it's the first step before I think before dating. I feel like being in love with yourself first is very, very important. the second half of that question was what would you say to someone who fears that they may never be loved or accepted because of their hair loss.

LINDSAY SULLIVAN:

(24:02)
I completely see you and understand that feeling and understand that fear, but the relationship you have with yourself is so foundational. It's also so beautiful. It's one of those things where my friends in relationship or people that have kids, like that's such a beautiful thing. But there is something that I think we the grass is always greener. Like we're like, I want to find my person and a lot of people in relationship are like, my God, I would love to watch my show like at home, or I would love my kids not follow me into the bathroom like every time I pee. Like it's there's some really beautiful things about taking that time. And I like Taylor was saying earlier, like I think alopecia is a really great way to weed people out and like have this like metal detector of who is

Cause it's true. It's like alopecia is one thing about me. And if you react poorly, that tells me a whole lot about you. So, you know, it's hard. I completely understand. Like it can feel so lonely and so tough. I see you and you get to feel those feelings, but just understand that like you get to love yourself and like think of your friends, think of your family. Like there are people that love you. Love looks like a lot of different things.

but if romantic love is something you want, like you are deserving of putting yourself out there and it'll only become easier when you find ways to truly be a little bit obsessed with yourself, Diva. Like

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(25:36)
Yes, I agree. You definitely and people will see that. So I think that's important. You that is so important. and before I go on to the next question, you know, I've said for years like we have as women have accepted men being bald for years and thought that they were attractive. Okay. I remember you for years being younger, older and just thinking that they they're so attractive, but

There is a difference with the man feeling like a bald woman is attractive. I think sometimes they're changing, but I think that really goes back to how they've been raised and how they've grown up. Like earlier, I don't know who said it societies. and we are always, we've always been taught like our hair is our glory, right? And so I think that's something that they've heard as well as, you know, little girls hearing that, you know, it's all about the hair, it's all about the hair. And so you have men that are obsessed with long hair, short hair, and now there are men that obsess with bald head. So I just, you know, I know that the balance of the acceptance for men and women has been different. I I do love that there a lot of women that are comfortable enough, you know, to show their spots, you know, go completely bald just be okay and free in their own skin and letting the world, not just men, women, everybody see them that I'm okay, that I'm okay and good where I am, you know. So our next question is for Miss Ebony. Have you ever questioned whether someone was generally attracted to you or simply trying to make you feel accepted. And how did you work through that emotion, Ebony?

EBONY JEAN:

(27:31)
This is such a good question. I met a guy a few years ago and we were just talking. We were hanging out at a birthday party and he said that I really like you. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, I don't have any hair. Why is he attracted to me? And so I asked him that to be honest. And he said, Why wouldn't why wouldn't I be attracted to you? You know, so that was an insecurity of mine that I was overcoming because I was like rejected by so many guys in high school, in college. I'm just like, what is it gonna take for somebody to truly see me for who I am and not worry about the exterior, you know? so it took a long time for me to overcome how I feel about myself and also just seeing what I see in the mirror every day. I am just I don't know, it I have like mixed emotions. Like I I'm confident on one side, but on another side, I still get discouraged because the minute I like a guy now, he's always quick to point the finger, like what what's going on with this? Or he would immediately ghost me. And I'm sure that so many of you can relate. Like the minute you start talking to somebody, you think everything's going well, but after a while they stop talking and you don't hear from them after a while.

A lot of guys have ghosted me because of this and you know, it it's just weird, but I'm learning every day not to get so caught up on what they think about me. It's more so what I think about myself. And I really like what Lindsay pointed out earlier, you know, just talking about dating and perceptions and y you know, just how people are in general. So every day I am learning to like figure out who's really for me. One thing about alopecia is Lindsay mentioned, it just it weeds out the wrong people. You start to learn very quickly like who's for you, who's not. So that is something that I have taken note of and I'm trying to relax and just allow people to really get to know me and not be so quick to push them away, if you will, or you know, kind of shutting down. But yeah.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(29:49)
Yeah. How let me ask you this. This is this is off the questions. Do you still you still wear your wigs sometimes? Yeah when you go Okay, but a lot of times when you go out on their dates or are you are you on the dating amps do you is your bald out there so people know that you're ball up front?

EBONY JEAN:

(30:10)
I'm not on any dating apps at this time, but I'm kind of old fashioned.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(30:15)
It's okay.

EBONY JEAN:

(30:16)
but like as far as my social media, I'm definitely vocal about my alopecia. there was another guy who was interested in me a few years ago and he asked for my number and I told him this. I said, I'll tell you what, I'll give you my Instagram so that way you can see what I'm about and then we'll go from there so that way you can understand like what Exactly. Yep. but I still wear wigs from time to time.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(30:38)
My life was yeah.

EBONY JEAN:

(30:44)
And I don't mind it. Like I just don't like when people try to place restrictions on me, like you have to decide whether to wear wig or not. You know, I want that to be my decision. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So a lot of people try to make me choose and I just don't think it's necessary. It's about what I feel and how I feel about myself and what makes me comfortable.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(30:54)
Choice. Yeah.

Exactly. And what makes you feel good and free. Taylor, I'll ask you that same question because I know you said you wear wigs. Is there a point 'cause I meant to ask this early, is there a point when you feel like there's a safe time to tell a person that you have alopecia or you know that I wear wigs? Or do you even feel like that's something that you have to share in the, you know, until it gets to that point?

Where in a date would you tell someone that? Or she share that?

TAYLOR MOONEY:

(31:38)
Before a little bit ago, I used to do I used to wait till I felt comfortable, not then, like I felt comfortable with it, whether it was after I had had hooked like had intimate relations with them or whether it was before or whenever it was. But then I had this one situation that happened to me where I matched with this guy on Hinge and we were talking for a while and we were going on a date.

And we had had to reschedule it a couple of times. And I told him that I was bald before our date and he canceled our date. And he told me it was because I was bald. And my friend told me, She's like, Why don't you just put a couple pictures of you bald on like your dating profile? So now I have some pictures of me and wigs and like different wigs, and some pictures of me bald on my dating profile so people know.

Already. So I don't have to have the conversation anymore. Like you've already seen it. You know I show up in the hair I want to wear that night. And then the next date I'll wear a different hair. And so that has been the most the best thing for me personally, but that's what works for me. And I think the most important thing is that you feel comfortable with whatever works for you. For you.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(32:48)
Well that kind of segues into the next question for Taylor, you just stay on because it's for you and I. if you were having a completely unfiltered conversation tonight, what's something about dating with alopecia that people are usually too afraid or embarrassed to admit out loud? This could include concerns about someone seeing them without their wigs.

There's scarves, hats, eyelashes, eyebrows for the first time, navigating intimacy, or an awkward, embarrassing, or unexpected moment you've experienced while dating with alopecia? And I'm gonna answer that one to you. But you go right in.

TAYLOR MOONEY:

(33:32)
kind of want to talk about intimacy a little bit because I think it's something that we don't talk about enough that I would have liked and appreciated growing up having somebody talk kind of conversation about it. So I in my life have had romantic partners that never knew I had alopecia. I wore my the entire time they never knew I've had ones that did know I that I told kind of earlier recently I was dating this guy for a while and we it was like the first time we had had a romantic kind of encounter and I was wearing like one of my cheap Amazon wigs. It was like twenty bucks. And so it wasn't glued down, it wasn't on and it and I left it on because it was like the first time I was with him and I was self-conscious about like, my gosh, he knows I'm bald, but like what if he sees me bald and then he like doesn't care and it was kind of falling off and he stopped me and said, why don't you just take it off? And I I was like, Okay. So I so I like and I didn't end up like dating him long term, but that experience was very like empowering for me to know that yes like even with all the work that I've done with my like self confidence, I still had that thought of like, my gosh, what if he sees me and he's no longer attracted to me and then he leaves. And so I think it's just something that a lot of people think about and I wanted to address.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(34:59)
Yes. And a similar thing happened with me years ago. I because being a hairstylist, I have perfected well, I'll say I had perfected before I, you know, went bald. the covering game. I could cover with the best of I make wigs as well. So I knew how to cover and like you said, intimacy is you know.

It's just a a thing that I think women goin fear of like, is the wig gonna come off? You know? And I thought being a beauty professional that I definitely had enough hooks and everything on my wig to keep it on tight. But just like you said, I had that same thing happen to me once, where my wig flew across the room a during intimate moment and mortified.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(35:55)
I wanted to like jump out of my skin. And I'm sure everybody in this room could could relate to that. at the moment, the guy, like you said, you know, he said your your friend told you to take it off. he he tried constantly to just make me feel affirmed and to let me know, this is okay, it's all right that it happened. And you know, I believed him.

I really believed him and I thought we had something, you know, when you think that you you're in something with someone and you think it's special and all that. And so I really, really believed him at that moment when he said it was, you know, it's okay and just it was very reassuring. So all of the teneness that I had, you know, was trying to, you know, go down and and relax and believe him in that moment, but he never called me again.

He never ever did. Now, pretty much I am all the time, I think I'm a pretty confident person, even covering up with my wigs. And it probably has something to do with the beauty industry, just the job that I have. I sell beauty every day. And so that is why I am open and I understand both sides of having alopecia, wearing the wigs, and not and being free, being bald and being free with wigs because I have a lot of clients because I have alopecia that deal with alopecia that want to wear wigs and that's their freedom, you know, choice. Now for me at that moment, I wasn't free at that time and not free bald So at that moment, I said I'm putting all the glue, all the tape, I am super secure, and that will never ever happen to me again. I didn't want to ever feel that - that feeling and they are I guess things that I didn't even just think about. I would just put the wig on. I didn't think about the extra security that it took to not lose my wig in an intimate moment. So, you know, for women that are choosing to wear their wigs and 'cause sharing that with someone, like you said earlier, that's it's your time.

And it's important to be on your, not just your time, your timing when it's comfortable for you to share that you want to share, that I'm wearing wigs or, you know, that I'm bald and I I want to let you see it. it's it's I don't even know when is the right time. You know, I think it depends on every situation becaus every relationship is different.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(38:43)
How that person communicates with you is different. And you know, once I get got married, I met my husband on a a dating app as well. And I think I mentioned to him, but it maybe I thought it went over his head. I should have known that it really didn't go over his head because he looks, he listens to everything and and if he did doesn't know what it is, he's looking it up. So I told him I had alopecia, but I never thought any more about it.

And I will cover my I do put my weave on and all that good stuff. And one day he came home early and I had hair like laid all out. And I was trying to put my head on and cover it up. And he was like, I mean, why are you covering up? I've already seen your head. I took your bonnet off one night. But if you can't be comfortable in your own home, where can you be comfortable?

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(39:38)
Now I had never heard that before, but all of our dating, I never he never got to see my head bald. But after marriage, he he saw it. But he expressed, I mean, at that point, I guess, you know, he he loved me for who I was, but he also wanted me to know that this house is your sanctuary. And you know, if you can't be comfortable here, whatever comfort whatever

that looks like for you for it. So if you want to shave your head or if you don't want to wear the rest of your head, if you don't whatever you want to do, I'm okay with it. Long as you're okay. So when he said that in that moment, that was like some kind of freedom that I didn't think existed for me. Cause to high school Sheila, when you were losing these little spots that you were covering up.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(40:37)
That wasn't what you thought. You were like, I'm gonna have to figure out how to navigate, how to cover this stuff up. I I never thought that I would hear someone say that. And but my daughter was five years old at that time and you know, she was in the other room, but she was listening like little kids listen. And she said, Mommy, I don't want anyone to know that you're bald. I don't want anyone to know that. So in this one moment of feeling freedom.

And like, my goodness, I maybe could take this wig off and live this way. she said no. And I feel like her hair loss really affects the whole entire family. so I said, okay. And I continued to wear my wigs because what she felt was important to me, because she was a kid. Not like a man, but she was a kid, and that was what.

Sh all the other mommies had hair. So she wanted her mommy to have hair. And I didn't know how long that was gonna take, but it took twelve years. And she just woke up one morning and said, Hey mom, you still want to shave your hair? And I said, Yes, I wanna do it. And she said, You can do it. let's shave it today and put it on Snapchat. Well, of course I didn't let her shave it and put it on Snapchat, but I did, and that was the day that I became free, my choice of freedom and in 2018 and I've enjoyed living this way. I haven't wanted to put my wig back on. but that like I said, this is my freedom choice. And I like that everyone has their own freedom, you know, choice of dating. But

I am going to move on to the next question to Miss Darlene, because as she's, you know, told us that she is the oldest beauty on the panel tonight. But, you know, as a 69-year-old woman with an alopecia advocate, married twice, and someone who has lived, loved, and learned, how do you stay open to the possibility of love?

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(42:51)
and companionship later in life while continuing to build fulfillment and meaningful life on your own.

Darling?

Taylor, can you hear me?

Is Darlene?

LINDSAY SULLIVAN:

(43:14)
The Queen the Queen is on mute. Yes. Queen Darlene.

EBONY JEAN:

(43:17)
She's emailed it.

TAYLOR MOONEY:

(43:20)
Is there

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(43:22)
Okay, so while she's on mute, I'm going to go backwards and ask a question and I'll just text her. Ebony, let's see. Many of us have found ourselves educating someone we're dating about alopecia. How important is it for your partner to understand the emotional side of alopecia, the unspoken challenges that people often don't talk about, not just the physical aspect.

EBONY JEAN:

(43:54)
This is such an important question. Thank you for this, Sheila. it is very important to let your partner know what's going on. And from personal experience, if I could start things over, I would have shared exactly like not just my story, but just removing my wig so that way they could see exactly how I was, you know, navigating through alopecia.

there are many days where I was up and down in my relationship. The person that I dated, although I shared what was going on in the beginning, I remember him calling me asking if I could take off my wig and immediately I started crying. I was twenty three years old when I, you know, started dating this person, but he was like, No, I just I was just asking, like I just wanted to

make sure that you were comfortable. He said, I'm I'm okay if you want to wear a wig and you know, there's no problem with that. So I was comfortable in the relationship and it was for a while. We didn't date too long. It was like less than a year. But I realized that at the end of the relationship he wasn't happy. And he noticed that because I kept this hidden from him and I still wasn't comfortable, he used that

as an excuse to break up. So he broke up with me in a very unconventional way. it was during the holiday season. And he revealed to me that by the time I chose to be vulnerable with him about my alopecia, that it was too late. And so I just want my story to be an encouragement to someone who's listening. If you have a partner right now and

they're not as supportive of your alopecia journey, like for example, they're trying to pressure you into revealing your ball to them. I would say like not only have a conversation, but if that person is not willing to be supportive every step of the way, it's time to break up with them. You know, because you want someone who's going to be supportive. You want someone who's going to be you know accepting

of this condition, don't don't let anyone pressure you. You know, I felt pressured in this relationship and the guy ended up being a jerk anyway. But anywho, yeah, but just don't let anyone pressure you on when you should remove your hat, when you should remove your wig or your scarf. That should be up to you. And his entire family talked about me and shamed me for it. And it was just quite unfortunate how things ended.

But yeah, the biggest takeaway for me is to not let your significant other pressure you in removing your bald or I'm sorry, removing your hat and your wig and scarf, you know, from from, you know, your appearance.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(46:47)
Until you're ready. Yeah. Or yeah, when you're ready. I think that's important. It timing. Timing is so important. Absolutely. For your own your own healing. 'Cause the thing about another person, until you they don't know where you are, you know what I'm saying?

And I I was gonna go down a rabbit hole right then about because I think it was so many mixed, mixed things about the whole Will and Jada thing. And I think I feel like if I open this, you know, open this up, but I'll just say this one thing, you know. Will's reaction, 'cause I I think I got a thousand calls that day that, you know, he slapped Chris Rock. And I I probably shouldn't be having this conversation. But

I I said to someone, because my husband said, you know, I would have slapped him too. And I feel like because no one's at home hearing the conversations that you're having, no one, you know, sees the vulnerable moments. We all are sitting on this phone and we're saying, you know, we've had these moments, but you know, nobody's seen us cry.

About the hair. Nobody's seen us cry about the loneliness of you know, feeling like will I ever be loved? will there be someone out there that's gonna love me and love every part of me? You know?

You know, I am lucky that I have found someone, you know, so I want everyone to definitely be encouraged about that. There there I I do believe that there's someone out there for everyone. There's someone out there that loves and and I don't want us to feel like you know, somebody said earlier our disease does not define who we are because there of women, like even before I revealed my hair, I felt like it was my weight, you know, that

stop me, you know, from meeting Mr. Right or Mr. Right loving me. So I think as women we have so many things that

including our hair that we feel so hung up on. And I think that society really pays a big part of that. And you know, in social media, like when I was young and me and Miss Darlene when we were young, we didn't have social media. So I really, I really feel sorry for the dating scene now because everything is so socialized and the world has this perfect woman that's on the internet.

that this is what we have to look like. We didn't have that to compete with when I was younger. So I you know, and

Okay, I'm gonna go on to the next question. Sheila.

speaker-1 (50:00)
you

TAYLOR MOONEY:

(50:02)
Yeah.

JUDY WILLIAMS:

(50:02)
Sheila,

for interrupting. Yeah, we have a lot of questions coming in, so we want to start the Q

A.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(50:09)
boy. We Darlene we haven't even asked Darlene one question.

JUDY WILLIAMS:

(50:13)
Yes, Darlene is having technical issues on her end. So she's trying to jump back in.

LINDSAY SULLIVAN:

(50:19)
Yeah.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(50:20)
I'll save her questions to the side, but we will definitely go into

QA.

JUDY WILLIAMS:

(50:25)
Yes, thank you. And I'll turn off my camera so we can focus on you all. but we have the first question. It's actually a comment from someone. I thought it was important to say it. it says, I don't have a question. I just want to thank you for this webinar. I'm from Bosnia and we don't have support groups for people with alopecia. It means a lot.

To me to hear other people's experiences and know that I'm not alone. Thank you for sharing your stories. so obviously we we have a lot of great we have a lot of people putting comments like this in the QA. So thank you all for joining us today. I do have one question.

How often do you affirm yourself?

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(51:11)
Well, well, I'll start off with my answer. the day that I shaved all my head off that day on March 28, 2018, I was really, really nervous. Even though I'm in the beauty industry, I put a towel over my head. I walked down the hallway in the salon. I didn't have my makeup that day, I didn't have my earrings. And my coworker was like, Girl, I got some earrings, I got some lipstick, I you know, and I put that on. And so for the next three months.

I made my face up like to the gods. And every day, you know, I felt like that's what I had to do because the hair was no longer there. My earrings and my face was that was it. And three months later, one morning I woke up and I said, Sheila, you are so beautiful. You are beautiful without those earrings, without that foundation. And if you don't put on all that stuff, guess what? You're still beautiful. But I had to tell myself that.

And so a lot of times I just maybe put on lipstick right now. Most of the time, you don't see me with fate foundation on unless I I have some kind of event or I'm doing something like this, this webinar, or going to somewhere social. But my lipstick is it. And I love my Mac. It's called quite the standout. So it's my favorite lipstick and I love my Kendra Scott earrings. So you are not gonna find me a day without affirming myself.

without those two things and feeling good and looking in the mirror and telling myself, you are absolutely gorgeous. And I'm gonna be honest with you guys. when I shave my head, I tell people all the time it is the sexiest that I have ever felt in my whole entire life about me. I feel more sexy bald than I did ever

With all the hair that I have, but that's just me, how I feel. And everybody has the right to feel and live in their truth. And that's my truth. I I affirm every day because why not me? And if I don't tell me that, who's gonna tell me? So I love me first. So that's the first key to affirming yourself is loving yourself.

And that's in whatever way, all kinds of ways. I love getting massages. I love getting my feet done. Whatever. I just love loving on me. Okay. Whoever's next can take it.

JUDY WILLIAMS:

(53:42)
Thank you, Sha. Lindsay?

TAYLOR MOONEY:

(53:42)
Yeah.

LINDSAY SULLIVAN:

(53:48)
I used to tie loving myself when I felt like I wasn't gonna get love from boys and men. I was like, I'm gonna get myself worth from my work. And that became really painful for me too. Because when you put your affirmations in other things, when they don't work out, it's like a house of cards class. And I feel very thankful for therapy.

Something I love to do that I I tell my support group people to find something that you love doing. And if it makes you feel sexy, that's like super bonus that doesn't have anything to do with anyone else. And for me, that's dance class. And yes, I'm I'm like doing it with other people that I don't really know and we feel like we're in a music video.

But like I'm not doing it to make my body look good for a man. I'm doing it because I want to feel like I'm in a music video for like an hour. And especially with hair loss, like I struggle I've struggled my whole life with feeling feminine in the way that society tells women they have to look feminine. And I don't like there, like I feel the most feminine and sexy.

When I'm like, my God, I didn't mess up the spinny move during the Beyonce song. Cool. So it's whether it's dance class, it could be reading. Maybe you go to your favorite coffee shop and you're like, my brain is so big. I'm so sexy reading this book. Or maybe it's like you cooking, like I'm obsessed with cooking alone. Like it's doing these things that are kind of like in a way like dating yourself. And it's I I feel it's it's in little moments, but

I used to feel really affirmed by career stuff. And I feel very thankful I've gotten to do some fun stuff. But like when I have bad days with that, my self-esteem can't go out the window. So it's like I would say I feel the most affirmed when I'm shaking it in dance class. So like if if you can find something that you love doing that's not like to win the affection of someone else, like and you just enjoy doing it and you feel really good doing it.

Do it. And if it's not hurting anyone else.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(56:00)
Yeah.

EBONY JEAN:

(56:01)
Yeah.

JUDY WILLIAMS:

(56:03)
Thank you, Lindsay. I have another great question.

How do you know if someone is actually interested in you or making fun of you? I can never tell and it makes me closed off and rude because I'm scared of getting hurt. I'm so used to people making fun of me for having alopecia and pretending they like me and now I can't tell.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(56:28)
Yes.

TAYLOR MOONEY:

(56:29)
Can I tackle this one?

So I I think this is a really important question. I when I was in college, so I was twenty one years old, I was on a sports team and the guys on my sports team made up a game where they were like somebody had to pull off my wig and I wasn't really comfortable. Yeah, it was horrible. And my whole point is like them is that

EBONY JEAN:

(56:46)
Yeah

TAYLOR MOONEY:

(56:58)
If you are like confident in yourself and who you are as a person, nobody's gonna can like take that from you. So at that time, I wasn't confident in who I was. So they were using it against me. But if you walk around and you do your affirmations and you learn to appreciate you for who you are, nobody can use it against you. So then you should just assume that every person that likes you likes you.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(57:12)
Yeah.

TAYLOR MOONEY:

(57:27)
For you. You shouldn't assume they're making fun of you because why would they make fun of you? You're a beautiful person. So I think that's kind of what I learned from that horrible experience that I went through was that you can all all people can only

use things against you that you let them.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(57:47)
Yes, don't give them the power.

TAYLOR MOONEY:

(57:49)
Yeah, exactly. That was kind of what I took from that.

JUDY WILLIAMS:

(57:53)
Thank you, Taylor. And everyone, I'm sorry. I know we're our webinar ends at seven, but it's such a great topic and such great feedback that we're getting also in our QA. So I'm sorry if we're going over a few minutes. we had asked our speakers if they were okay with going over, and they all agreed. thank you again for your time. I I'm gonna ask just two more questions.

Some really important ones. Here is one. I often wear a wig or head wraps. I get asked by my neighbors or by my students when I was a teacher if I have cancer. This is so frustrating and I feel forced to reveal that I have alopecia when I don't want to. Has this happened to any of you and how did you handle it?

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(58:38)
Yes, it's happened to me. well, I mean, I I was in Hobby Lobby one day and really I'll say once my the first couple of months when my hair was a different tones and like the different patches were lighter and darker, I used to get a lot of questions. And but once my hair my scalp got the same color, you know, I didn't have those questions. But one day I was in Hobby Lobby.

And there was a new guy working and he said I got was in his line and he was like, So how's your treatment going? And so I looked to see you know who who can you be talking to? And he was like, So how's your treatment going? I said, Are you talking to me? He was like, Yeah, so how's your treatment going? I said, What treatment? He said, Your chemo treatment. I'm having chemo.

speaker-1 (59:27)
Cuss it.

Are?

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(59:31)
I don't even know you, but how am I having chemo? And so the manager was standing behind him because everybody in Hobby Lobby knows me because I'm there like every day. And she's like, you know, she was gonna allow me to let let him have it. But I told him, you know, you can't just assume that everyone that's bald has cancer. There are so many did so I had to give him an education lesson in the line at Hobby Lobby and the whole

Everybody in all the lines, they just clapped and because a lot of people are just ignorant and they don't know. And sometimes they just without thinking. but yeah, it's unfortunate. I don't know if anyone else had any experiences on the panel with that.

speaker-1 (1:00:07)
Speak.

EBONY JEAN:

(1:00:17)
Yeah, I'm I'm gonna jump in on this one too because since dealing with this as a child, I've dealt with so much ignorance, not just from students but educators. There were times my mom had to go up to my schools and have several meetings and conferences with these teachers, the principal even explaining my condition and why it affects me the way that it does.

because there were times where the teachers have tried suspending me from school because I used to wear hats to class and that was against the dress code. So you know, it's just really unfortunate how ignorant people can be. I even got some comments while working one day. I used to work in retail, worked in retail for over a decade. I left the industry in 2020, but when I was at work one afternoon, one of the managers walked up to me and

I had on a beanie during my shift. I was very grateful that they allowed me to wear it because my head was really cold. And sometimes wearing wigs can get itchy from time to time. but this manager, she walked up to me and she said, You need to stop wearing beanies because you look like a boy.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(1:01:31)
Mm-hmm.

EBONY JEAN:

(1:01:32)
Are you serious? And so I I brought that up to my supervisor. I said, This is this comment is unacceptable. and I explained what was going on. I have alopecia. Now you I'm usually upfront about this now, and I'm grateful that I can talk about it, but it's still unfortunate that people can be so ignorant and just say anything, you know, just to strike up a conversation. I always tell people, you know, educate yourselves. And if I can.

And I say this respectfully, when it comes to losing hair, it's not always cancer. You know, just like how Sheila explained, you know, if there are multiple conditions that can cause hair loss, and alopecia is one of them. Right, exactly. And just the way that people are, they just jump to the first thing that comes to mind. No, but that's a part of why I advocate the way that I do. And I'm very passionate about that. And I'm very quick to shut people down with their

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(1:02:13)
One of them.

EBONY JEAN:

(1:02:29)
comments and their ignorant assumptions. But yeah, that's it's it's a heartbreaking situation to go through, but it is important to bring up these conversations so that way we know how to handle ourselves going forward.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(1:02:42)
Yes.

JUDY WILLIAMS:

(1:02:42)
Thank you, Ebony, for sharing that. And I know our time's up. So rather quickly, just our final question. We have a question from someone in our audience who is gender fluid. They shared that wigs are a big part of how they express their gender and that they often use wigs to help communicate that to the world. And since experiencing hair loss, they've

found it more challenging to feel seen and understood, especially by friends, family, or people they're dating. They'd love to hear from the panel on how has hair, hair loss affected your sense of identity or self-expression. And what advice would you give someone whose gender expression feels closely connected to their hair?

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(1:03:25)
I love this question. Okay.

TAYLOR MOONEY:

(1:03:27)
Yeah. Sorry, go ahead, Lindsay.

LINDSAY SULLIVAN:

(1:03:29)
Yeah, it's

it's thank you so much for joining and for your question. I think there is so much chatter about boxes and things, and I think we're in this beautiful place where people can be more expressive. So I think it's incredible that you use wigs to do that.

Yeah, I went through a phase in my 30s recently where like the I had like probably this much hair and it all fell out. And it's interesting because just like the experience Ebony had literally at work, I'm so sorry that happened to you, feeling misgendered or like someone is like making a call about your identity. That is one of the hardest things about hair loss. When people outside of you are like telling you who you are and it's like,

maybe your fear of you're like, I'm really trying to not present as that. And so yeah, it's it's so hard to figure out I say this to a lot of people, figuring out how you're going to present to the world. It's something that we all face, but it's definitely something that people with hair loss, like the morning routine can feel so heavy when you have hair loss and getting ready to go out in the world. And so what I'll say to you is it's really

Figuring out and finding the fun in determining how you feel best presenting to and that's going to fluctuate. It's and something I've really loved learning in my 30s because you know there's things changing, my body's changing, my face is changing, and you know, I know that alopecia is such a front-facing condition. I don't want to minimize that, but our appearances are gonna fluctuate and change if we're lucky enough.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(1:04:52)
Yes.

LINDSAY SULLIVAN:

(1:05:13)
To age. There's gonna be something about our identity that shifts and our physical identity that we cannot control. And so I encourage people to find things that aren't front-facing to tie to their identity. Are you a really good friend? Do you volunteer? It's think of the other things that make you you.

And try to find the fun in the presentation. Cause I've yeah, I've cried in the mirror being like, I can't get my contact lens in for work because I don't have eyelashes now. Or my God, like I'm gonna wear a suit to this meeting. I don't feel like I can wear a beanie. I don't feel like I'm stylish enough. And it's the logistical meets the emotional, and you're crying because you're like, how am I gonna present? And that's so hard and you're not alone in that. But I think where you can finding the fun, because something I did during that time was rock like a

Kaleidoscope of head scarves. and I feel like I'm forgetting the second half of the question, but yeah, I think giving time for yourself to fall apart as you're figuring these things out, but also finding the fun and crafting this new identity. Like I I kept changing my dating app photos when my hair was falling out because I wanted to make sure they were accurate. And so it was really funny. Like I was like, they're gonna think I'm like a bot, but it's figuring out how you wanna present.

Is is yours and that can feel so overwhelming and this world can make it a curse, but it's actually a gift.

SHEILA MARIE HUNTER:

(1:06:42)
Yes, it is.

JUDY WILLIAMS:

(1:06:46)
Thank you so much, Lindsay. That was a great answer. And our time is up, so I'm going to share my screen again. Thank you again. And to our attendees with these great questions that they submitted.

And now I'm gonna tell you a little bit about our conference that it sounds like all of our panelists, all of our speakers will be attending. some of them will actually be participating in our sessions. Sheila will be in our exhibit as an exhibitor. So if you want to come visit them and chat more, please you can join us too. There is still time to register. Nap's 41st annual conference will take place in Orlando, Florida from June 25th to through June 28th.

This conference is the largest gathering of the alopecia areata community in the world, and you're invited. It is a unique opportunity to hear directly from experts, connect with community leaders in alopecia areata, and meet others who share similar experiences. So, yes, there is still time to register. Our kids camp is closed, but there is still time to register for our adults who want to, or children who won't be at our youth camp. There is still time to register for them as well.

And thank you again to all of our amazing panelists for sharing their stories and their personal experience. I know this is a hard topic, so it is we are truly grateful for you participating in this very important topic. And to our audience, thank you for joining us. Please share your feedback on today's webinar and help us plan future presentations. A link to a short survey will pop up in your browser window at the end of the webinar. Your feedback is appreciated.

This webinar series is taking a break for July. We will see you again in August. Please check your email and NAAF social media channels for the August webinar announcement. You can revisit past NAAF webinar recordings on our NAAF website. And we encourage you to stay in regular touch with NAAF. Use a QR code here to subscribe to our email list for regular updates on alopecia areata news and research, the monthly NAAF electronic newsletter.

And notices about upcoming webinars and other programs. To learn more about NAAF and the resources we offer, please visit NAAF.org or email us at support at NAAF.org. This concludes today's webinar program. Thank you again to all our panelists or speakers for joining us and to our attendees. We look forward to seeing you on the next webinar.